Gittin / Daf 16

דף 16

Gittin 15b

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הוּא וְאַחֵר מְעִידִין עַל חֲתִימַת יַד שֵׁנִי – פָּסוּל. מַאי טַעְמָא? אָתוּ לְאִיחַלּוֹפֵי בְּקִיּוּם שְׁטָרוֹת דְּעָלְמָא, וְקָא נָפֵיק נְכֵי רִיבְעָא דְמָמוֹנָא אַפּוּמָּא דְּחַד סָהֲדָא.
he, i.e., the agent, and another person testify with regard to the signature of the second witness, the bill of divorce is invalid. What is the reason for this? Perhaps people will come to confuse it with the typical case of ratification of legal documents, and will rely on one witness who testifies about his own signature and that of the other signatory, while another witness joins with him to testify with regard to the other signature. And as a result of this, the full sum of money, minus a quarter, will be extracted based upon the testimony of one witness. In order to ratify legal documents in general, two witnesses must testify as to the validity of each of the signatures. If the Sages were to allow one witness to testify about his own signature and another witness to join him in testifying about the other signature in the case of a bill of divorce, it may lead to the same method being employed with regard to other legal documents.
если он [посланник] и ещё один свидетельствуют о подписи второго [свидетеля] — недействителен. По какой причине? Могут перепутать с удостоверением обычных документов, и тогда выйдет, что четверть имущества выводится на основании [показания] одного свидетеля.
מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רַב אָשֵׁי: מִי אִיכָּא מִידֵּי, דְּאִילּוּ מַסֵּיק לֵיהּ אִיהוּ לְכוּלֵּיהּ דִּיבּוּרָא, כָּשֵׁר; הַשְׁתָּא דְּאִיכָּא חַד בַּהֲדֵיהּ, פָּסוּל?!
Rav Ashi objects to this: Is there any situation in which if he himself would complete his entire statement by saying: It was written in my presence and it was signed in my presence, the document would be valid, and now that there is another one who testifies with him, the bill of divorce is invalid?
Возразил Рав Аши: разве бывает такое, что если он сам произносит всё высказывание целиком — действителен, а теперь, когда есть один вместе с ним — недействителен?!
אֶלָּא אָמַר רַב אָשֵׁי: אֲפִילּוּ אוֹמֵר ״אֲנִי הוּא עֵד שֵׁנִי״ – פָּסוּל. מַאי טַעְמָא? אוֹ כּוּלּוֹ בְּקִיּוּם הַגֵּט, אוֹ כּוּלּוֹ בְּתַקָּנַת חֲכָמִים.
Rather, Rav Ashi says that even if the agent says: I am the second witness who signed the bill of divorce, it is invalid. What is the reason for this? A bill of divorce cannot be validated by a combination of two types of credibility. It must be authenticated either entirely through the ratification of the bill of divorce, in the manner that other documents are ratified, or it must be entirely ratified via the rabbinic decree, in which case the testimony of the agent is considered equivalent to that of two people who ratify the signatures.
Но сказал Рав Аши: даже если он говорит «я [сам] и есть второй свидетель [подписавший гет]» — недействителен. По какой причине? Либо всё — через удостоверение гета, либо всё — через установление мудрецов.
תְּנַן: ״בְּפָנַי נִכְתַּב כּוּלּוֹ, בְּפָנַי נֶחְתַּם חֶצְיוֹ״, פָּסוּל. אִידַּךְ חֶצְיוֹ הֵיכִי דָמֵי? אִילֵּימָא דְּלֵיכָּא דְּקָא מַסְהֵיד עֲלֵיהּ כְּלָל; הַשְׁתָּא אֶחָד אוֹמֵר ״בְּפָנַי נִכְתַּב״ וְאֶחָד אוֹמֵר ״בְּפָנַי נֶחְתַּם״, דְּהַאי קָמַסְהֵיד אַכּוּלַּהּ כְּתִיבָה וְהַאי קָמַסְהֵיד אַכּוּלַּהּ חֲתִימָה, פָּסוּל; חֶצְיוֹ מִיבַּעְיָא?!
The Gemara cites a proof for this claim: We learned in the mishna that if an agent for a bill of divorce said: All of it was written in my presence and half of it was signed in my presence, this bill of divorce is invalid. The Gemara clarifies: What are the circumstances with regard to the other half of the bill of divorce? If we say that there is no one who testifies about it at all, this is problematic: Now the mishna taught that if one agent says: It was written in my presence, and one agent says: It was signed in my presence, in which case this agent testifies with regard to all the writing and that agent testifies with regard to all the signing, it is invalid. When the agent testifies that only half of it was signed in his presence, is it necessary to say that the document is invalid?
Мы учили [в Мишне]: «В моём присутствии был написан весь, в моём присутствии была подписана половина» — недействителен. Другая половина — что имеется в виду? Если скажешь, что никто не свидетельствует о ней вообще — ведь [в случае, когда] один говорит «в моём присутствии был написан», а другой говорит «в моём присутствии был подписан», где один свидетельствует обо всём написании, а другой обо всём подписании, — и то недействителен; о половине ли нужно [говорить]?!
אֶלָּא אוֹ כִּדְרָבָא אוֹ כִּדְרַב אָשֵׁי,
Rather, the mishna must be teaching that the bill of divorce is invalid even if there is additional testimony with regard to the second signature. This novelty can be explained either in accordance with the opinion of Rava, who holds that the agent joins with another person to testify about the second signature, or in accordance with the opinion of Rav Ashi, who holds that he testifies about his own signature.
Но [это] либо по [мнению] Равы, либо по [мнению] Рава Аши,
וּלְאַפּוֹקֵי מִדְּרַב חִסְדָּא.
The Gemara adds: And this is to exclude the opinion of Rav Ḥisda, who declares that the document is invalid even when there is a full ratification of the second signature. Because the mishna merely alludes to the novelty in this clause, without specifying it, one may infer only the lesser novelty. Since Rav Ḥisda’s novelty is greater than that of the other two Sages, had the mishna been taught for that purpose, it should have issued an explicit statement to that effect.
и [Мишна приведена], чтобы исключить [мнение] Рава Хисды.
אָמַר לְךָ רַב חִסְדָּא: וּלְטַעְמָיךְ, ״בְּפָנַי נִכְתַּב אֲבָל לֹא בְּפָנַי נֶחְתַּם״ לָמָּה לִי? אֶלָּא לֹא זוֹ אַף זוֹ קָתָנֵי,
The Gemara rejects this suggestion: Rav Ḥisda could have said to you: And according to your reasoning, why do I need the ruling of the mishna which states that if the agent said: It was written in my presence but it was not signed in my presence, the bill of divorce is invalid? The mishna could simply have stated: If he said: All of it was written in my presence and half of it was signed in my presence, it is invalid. One would have inferred that it is invalid all the more so if one does not testify with regard to the signature at all. Rather, one must say that the tanna teaches the mishna employing the style: Not only this but also that, i.e., each ensuing statement adds something novel.
Рав Хисда скажет тебе: по твоей логике, зачем [Мишне упоминать] «в моём присутствии был написан, но не в моём присутствии был подписан»? Но [Мишна] учит по принципу «не только это, но и это» [от более очевидного к менее очевидному],
הָכָא נָמֵי לָא זוֹ אַף זוֹ קָתָנֵי.
If so, here too the tanna teaches the mishna employing the style: Not only this but also that. In other words, Rav Ḥisda would answer that the above inference, i.e., that the clause dealing with: It was written in my presence but it was not signed in my presence, must be teaching an additional novelty, is incorrect. This is because it is a stylistic feature of the Mishna to teach a less novel case followed by a more novel one, regardless of the fact that had it taught the more novel case first, there would have been no need to mention the less novel case at all. Therefore, there is no need to infer a special, unstated novelty from this clause at all, which means it cannot be cited as proof against Rav Ḥisda’s greater novelty.
здесь тоже учит по принципу «не только это, но и это».
אָמַר רַב חִסְדָּא: גִּידּוּד חֲמִשָּׁה וּמְחִיצָה חֲמִשָּׁה – אֵין מִצְטָרְפִין, עַד שֶׁיְּהֵא אוֹ כּוּלּוֹ בִּמְחִיצָה אוֹ כּוּלּוֹ בְּגִידּוּד.
§ Tangentially, the Gemara cites a discussion that involves a similar underlying principle. Rav Ḥisda says, with regard to Shabbat domains: An embankment, i.e., a height disparity between two surfaces, of five handbreadths and an additional partition of five handbreadths, do not join together to form a partition of ten handbreadths, which is the minimum height for a partition to enclose a private domain. A halakhic partition is regarded as being composed of ten handbreadths only if it is composed entirely of a partition, e.g., a fence, or entirely of the embankment, e.g., a pit or incline.
Сказал Рав Хисда: выемка [в земле] в пять [тефахов] и перегородка [над ней] в пять — не объединяются [для создания стены в десять тефахов], пока не будет либо всё перегородкой, либо всё выемкой.
דָּרֵשׁ מָרִימָר: גִּידּוּד חֲמִשָּׁה וּמְחִיצָה חֲמִשָּׁה – מִצְטָרְפִין. וְהִלְכְתָא: מִצְטָרְפִין.
Mareimar taught: An embankment of five handbreadths and a partition of five handbreadths do join together to form a partition of ten handbreadths. The Gemara comments: And the halakha is that they join together. Rav Ḥisda’s opinion is analogous to the aforementioned case that a bill of divorce must be either entirely upheld by the agent or entirely upheld by the ratification of its signatures, although the halakha is ruled differently in the case of Shabbat domains.
Учил Маремар: выемка в пять и перегородка в пять — объединяются. И Галаха: объединяются.
בָּעֵי אִילְפָא: יָדַיִם – טְהוֹרוֹת לַחֲצָאִין, אוֹ אֵין טְהוֹרוֹת לַחֲצָאִין? הֵיכִי דָּמֵי? אִילֵּימָא דְּקָא מָשׁוּ בֵּי תְרֵי מֵרְבִיעִית, וְהָא תְּנַן: מֵרְבִיעִית נוֹטְלִין לַיָּדַיִם, לְאֶחָד וַאֲפִילּוּ לִשְׁנַיִם!
The Gemara cites another case that is based on the same principle. Ilfa raised a dilemma: With regard to ritual washing, can one’s hands be ritually pure in halves, or can they not be ritually pure in halves? The Gemara asks: What are the circumstances of this case? If we say that two people wash with the requisite one quarter-log of water, and therefore in actuality each one of them washes with only half of a quarter-log, but didn’t we learn explicitly in a mishna (Yadayim 1:1): With the amount of a quarter-log one can wash the hands of one person and even of two? A quarter-log of water suffices for one person to wash his hands before eating bread, and even two may wash their hands simultaneously with this amount, if they do so in the correct manner.
Спросил Ильфа: руки — очищаются ли по частям, или не очищаются по частям? Что имеется в виду? Если скажешь, что двое омывают из ревиит [четверти лога], — но ведь учили в Мишне: из ревиит омывают руки одному и даже двоим!
וְאֶלָּא דְּקָא מָשֵׁי חֲדָא חֲדָא יְדֵיהּ, וְהָתְנַן: הַנּוֹטֵל יָדוֹ אַחַת בִּנְטִילָה, וְאַחַת בִּשְׁטִיפָה, יָדָיו טְהוֹרוֹת!
But rather, Ilfa is referring to a case where one washed his two hands one by one, not both hands at the same time. The Gemara asks: But didn’t we learn in a mishna (Yadayim 2:1): With regard to one who purifies one hand by washing with a vessel and one hand by immersing it in a river, his hands are ritually pure? This mishna indicates that there is no need for both hands to be washed simultaneously.
А если он омывает одну руку за раз, — но ведь учили в Мишне: тот, кто омывает одну руку нетилой (обливанием), а другую штифой (ополаскиванием), — руки его чисты!
וְאֶלָּא דְּקָא מָשֵׁי פַּלְגָא פַּלְגָא דְּיָדֵיהּ, וְהָאָמְרִי דְּבֵי רַבִּי יַנַּאי: יָדַיִם – אֵין טְהוֹרוֹת לַחֲצָאִין! לָא צְרִיכָא, דְּאִיכָּא מַשְׁקֶה טוֹפֵחַ.
But rather, Ilfa’s dilemma refers to a case where he washes his hand in two halves, i.e., he first washes one half of his hand and next washes the second half of that same hand. The Gemara asks: But didn’t the Sages from the school of Rabbi Yannai say: Hands cannot be rendered ritually pure in halves? If so, one who washes half of his hand and pauses before washing the second half has not performed the act of washing the hands at all. The Gemara answers: No, Ilfa’s question is necessary only for a case where there is liquid that is still moist on his hand. When one washes the second half of his hand, some moisture remains on the portion of his hand that he already washed, and therefore one might think that this liquid joins with the water with which he washes the second half of his hand.
А если он омывает половину за половиной руки, — но ведь говорили в школе Рабби Яная: руки не очищаются по частям! Нет, [вопрос Ильфы] необходим, когда есть влага, достаточная для смачивания (машке тофеах).
וְכִי אִיכָּא מַשְׁקֶה טוֹפֵחַ מַאי הָוֵי? וְהָתְנַן:
The Gemara asks: And when there is liquid that rendered one’s hand moist, what of it? Is this a relevant factor? But didn’t we learn in a mishna (Teharot 8:9):
И когда есть влага, достаточная для смачивания, что из этого? Но ведь учили в Мишне: