Gittin / Daf 10

דף 10

Gittin 9b

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הָעוֹלִים בְּעַרְכָּאוֹת שֶׁל גּוֹיִם, אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁחוֹתְמֵיהֶן גּוֹיִם – כְּשֵׁירִין, חוּץ מִגִּיטֵּי נָשִׁים וְשִׁחְרוּרֵי עֲבָדִים. וּכְדִבְרֵי רַבִּי מֵאִיר – בְּאַרְבָּעָה: הָאוֹמֵר ״תֵּן גֵּט זֶה לְאִשְׁתִּי, וּשְׁטַר שִׁחְרוּר זֶה לְעַבְדִּי״, רָצָה לַחֲזוֹר בִּשְׁנֵיהֶם – יַחְזוֹר, דִּבְרֵי רַבִּי מֵאִיר.
that are produced in gentile courts [arkaot], even though their signatories are gentiles, they are valid, except for bills of divorce and bills of manumission. These documents are not valid when prepared by gentiles. And according to the statement of Rabbi Meir, bills of divorce and manumission are equal in four ways, the three aforementioned halakhot and also with regard to a man who says: Give this bill of divorce to my wife, or: Give this bill of manumission to my slave. They are equal in that if he desires to retract his instruction with regard to both of these documents, before they have reached the woman or slave, he can retract. This is the statement of Rabbi Meir.
оформленные в нееврейских судах — хотя подписавшие их — неевреи — действительны, кроме гитин женщин и вольноотпускных рабов. А по словам рабби Меира — в четырёх: тот, кто говорит «передай этот гет моей жене и эту вольноотпускную моему рабу» и хочет отозвать оба — может отозвать; слова рабби Меира.
בִּשְׁלָמָא לְרַבָּנַן, מִנְיָנָא לְמַעוֹטֵי הָא דְּרַבִּי מֵאִיר. אֶלָּא לְרַבִּי מֵאִיר, מִנְיָנָא לְמַעוֹטֵי מַאי?
The Gemara asks: Granted, according to the opinion of the Rabbis, they state the number three to exclude this opinion of Rabbi Meir, by emphasizing that there are only three ways, not four. However, according to the opinion of Rabbi Meir, what does the number four serve to exclude? Wouldn’t it have been enough to say that Rabbi Meir adds another case?
Понятно для мудрецов — число [три] исключает [четвёртый пункт] рабби Меира. Но для рабби Меира — число [четыре] что исключает?
לְמַעוֹטֵי הָא דְּתַנְיָא: עֵדִים שֶׁאֵין יוֹדְעִים לַחְתּוֹם, מְקָרְעִין לָהֶם נְיָיר חָלָק, וּמְמַלְּאִים אֶת הַקְּרָעִים דְּיוֹ.
The Gemara answers: The Sages mention this number to exclude that which is taught in a baraita: With regard to witnesses who do not know how to sign, i.e., they do not know how to write their names, one tears blank paper for them, meaning that a stencil of their names is fashioned from blank paper and placed on the bill of divorce. And the witnesses fill in the gaps with ink so that their names appear on the document.
Чтобы исключить то, чему учили в барайте: свидетели, не умеющие подписывать — им вырезают на чистой бумаге [контуры букв], и они заполняют прорези чернилами.
אָמַר רַבָּן שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל: בַּמֶּה דְּבָרִים אֲמוּרִים – בְּגִיטֵּי נָשִׁים, אֲבָל שִׁחְרוּרֵי עֲבָדִים וּשְׁאָר כׇּל הַשְּׁטָרוֹת, אִם יוֹדְעִין לִקְרוֹת וְלַחְתּוֹם – חוֹתְמִין, וְאִם לָאו – אֵין חוֹתְמִין.
Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel said: In what case is this statement said? It is said with regard to bills of divorce. However, with regard to bills of manumission and all other documents, if the witnesses know how to read and sign, they sign, and if not, they do not sign. Rabbi Meir agrees with the opinion of Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel that bills of divorce and bills of manumission are different with regard to this issue, and he mentioned the number to exclude the possibility that the halakha stated by the first tanna of this baraita applies to both types of documents.
Раббан Шимон бен Гамлиэль сказал: о чём это сказано? О гитин женщин; но вольноотпускные рабов и все прочие документы — если [свидетели] умеют читать и подписывать — подписывают, а если нет — не подписывают.
קְרִיָּיה מַאן דְּכַר שְׁמַיהּ? חַסּוֹרֵי מְחַסְּרָא וְהָכִי קָתָנֵי: עֵדִים שֶׁאֵין יוֹדְעִין לִקְרוֹת – קוֹרִין לִפְנֵיהֶם וְחוֹתְמִין, וְשֶׁאֵין יוֹדְעִין לַחְתּוֹם – מְקָרְעִין לָהֶם.
With regard to Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel’s statement, the Gemara asks: Reading, who mentioned anything about it? Why does Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel mention a need for the witnesses to be able to read when the discussion is about a witness who does not know how to sign? The Gemara answers: The baraita is incomplete, and this is what it is teaching: If witnesses do not know how to read, then one reads in their presence and they sign. And if they do not know how to sign, then one tears paper for them and they sign. Once the baraita is emended, it is clear that Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel was responding to the statement of the previous tanna.
«Чтение» — кто его упоминал? [Ответ:] текст неполный и следует читать так: свидетели, не умеющие читать — читают перед ними и они подписывают; а не умеющие подписывать — вырезают для них [контуры букв].
וְתוּ לֵיכָּא?! וְהָאִיכָּא: הָאוֹמֵר ״תְּנוּ גֵּט זֶה לְאִשְׁתִּי, וּשְׁטַר שִׁחְרוּר זֶה לְעַבְדִּי״, וּמֵת – לֹא יִתְּנוּ לְאַחַר מִיתָה, ״תְּנוּ מָנֶה לִפְלוֹנִי״, וּמֵת – יִתְּנוּ לְאַחַר מִיתָה.
The Gemara asks: And is there nothing else that can be added to the list of ways in which bills of divorce and bills of manumission are equal? But isn’t there a case taught in the mishna (13a): If a person on his deathbed says: Give this bill of divorce to my wife, or this bill of manumission to my slave, and he dies, they should not give the bill after his death. However, if he said: Give one hundred dinars to so-and-so, and he dies, they should give it after his death. Apparently, this is another halakha in which bills of divorce and bills of manumission share equal status.
И больше нет [общего между ними]?! Но ведь есть: говорящий «передайте этот гет моей жене и эту вольноотпускную моему рабу» и умерший — не передают после смерти; «дайте мане (сто зуз) такому-то» и умерший — дают после смерти.
כִּי קָתָנֵי, מִילְּתָא דְּלֵיתַיהּ בִּשְׁטָרוֹת, מִילְּתָא דְּאִיתַיהּ בִּשְׁטָרוֹת לָא קָתָנֵי.
The Gemara answers: When the baraita teaches the ways in which bills of divorce and bills of manumission are equal, it is referring only to a matter that does not apply to typical documents and it does not teach any matter that is equally applicable to typical documents.
[Танна] перечисляет только то, чего нет в [обычных] документах; то, что есть и в документах — не перечисляет.
דִּשְׁלַח רָבִין מִשְּׁמֵיהּ דְּרַבִּי אֲבָהוּ: הֱווּ יוֹדְעִין, שֶׁשָּׁלַח רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר לַגּוֹלָה מִשּׁוּם רַבֵּינוּ: שְׁכִיב מְרַע שֶׁאָמַר ״כִּתְבוּ וּתְנוּ מָנֶה לִפְלוֹנִי״, וּמֵת – אֵין כּוֹתְבִין וְנוֹתְנִין,
The Gemara explains: As Ravin sent from Eretz Yisrael in the name of Rabbi Abbahu: You should know that Rabbi Elazar sent this teaching to the Diaspora, i.e., Babylonia, in the name of our teacher, Rabbi Yoḥanan: With regard to the case of a person on his deathbed who says: Write a deed of transfer and give with it one hundred dinars to so-and-so, and then dies before they had the opportunity to write the document, one does not write and give the document. Why not?
Ибо послал Равин от имени рабби Авау: знайте, что рабби Элазар послал в диаспору от имени нашего учителя: умирающий (шхив мера), сказавший «напишите и дайте мане такому-то» и умерший — не пишут и не дают,
שֶׁמָּא לֹא גָּמַר לְהַקְנוֹתוֹ אֶלָּא בִּשְׁטָר, וְאֵין שְׁטָר לְאַחַר מִיתָה.
The Gemara explains: Perhaps he resolved to transfer these one hundred dinars to him only with a deed of transfer, and a deed of transfer of property is not written after the death of the owner. This shows that other documents are also not written after one’s death, which means that this halakha is not specific to bills of divorce and bills of manumission. Therefore, it is not listed among the ways in which these two documents are similar.
ибо, возможно, он намеревался передать ему [право] только посредством документа, а документ [не действует] после смерти.
וְהָאִיכָּא לִשְׁמָהּ?
The Gemara raises another difficulty: But isn’t there the halakha that both bills of divorce and bills of manumission must be written for her sake, i.e., for the sake of the particular woman or slave to whom they are given? Why isn’t this halakha included in the list?
Но ведь есть [ещё общее правило] — лишма (написание во имя неё)?
בִּשְׁלָמָא לְרַבָּה, הַיְינוּ מוֹלִיךְ וּמֵבִיא. אֶלָּא לְרָבָא, קַשְׁיָא!
The Gemara comments: Granted, according to the opinion of Rabba, this is included in the statement: The two documents are similar with regard to the halakhot of delivering and bringing, as he maintains that this requirement to write the document for the sake of the recipient is the primary reason why the agents must state that it was written and signed in their presence. However, according to the opinion of Rava, who holds that the reason for this statement is to ratify the bill of divorce, this is difficult.
Для Раббы понятно — это и есть [правило] отвозящего и доставляющего. Но для Равы — затруднение!
וְתוּ: בֵּין לְרַבָּה בֵּין לְרָבָא, הָאִיכָּא מְחוּבָּר! כִּי קָתָנֵי פְּסוּלָא דְרַבָּנַן, דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא לָא קָתָנֵי.
And furthermore, both according to the opinion of Rabba and according to the opinion of Rava, there is the case of bills which were written and signed while they were attached to the ground, e.g., on a leaf attached to a tree, which invalidates both bills of divorce and bills of manumission. The Gemara explains: When the baraita teaches its list it is referring solely to issues that cause the documents to be rendered invalid by rabbinic law. It does not teach cases involving invalidation by Torah law. Since these two cases, i.e., documents not written for the recipient’s sake or when they are attached to the ground, are not valid by Torah law, the baraita did not mention these cases.
И ещё: как для Раббы, так и для Равы — ведь есть [закон о написании на] прикреплённом [к земле]! [Ответ:] перечисляются только запреты мудрецов; запрет по Торе не перечисляется.
וְהָא עַרְכָּאוֹת שֶׁל גּוֹיִם, דִּפְסוּלָא דְאוֹרָיְיתָא הוּא, וְקָתָנֵי! בְּעֵדֵי מְסִירָה, וּכְרַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר דְּאָמַר: עֵדֵי מְסִירָה כָּרְתִי.
The Gemara challenges this response: But there is the example of documents written in gentile courts, which is an invalidation of documents that applies by Torah law, and yet the baraita teaches this halakha. The Gemara answers: This is referring to a bill of divorce that was given with valid witnesses who observe the transmission of a legal document, and this is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Elazar, who says in a mishna (10b): Witnesses of the transmission of a bill of divorce effect the divorce. In his opinion, the effectiveness of the document depends on the witnesses who observe its transmission, not those who sign the bill of divorce. Consequently, a bill of divorce that was signed in a gentile court is rendered invalid by rabbinic law.
Но ведь нееврейские суды — это запрет по Торе, а он перечисляется! [Ответ:] речь идёт о свидетелях передачи, и это по мнению рабби Элазара, который сказал: свидетели передачи определяют [развод].
וְהָא מִדְּקָתָנֵי סֵיפָא, רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן אוֹמֵר: אַף אֵלּוּ כְּשֵׁירִין, וְאָמַר רַבִּי זֵירָא: יָרַד רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן לְשִׁיטָתוֹ שֶׁל רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר, דְּאָמַר עֵדֵי מְסִירָה כָּרְתִי; מִכְּלָל דְּתַנָּא קַמָּא סָבַר – לָא!
The Gemara raises a difficulty: But from the fact that it teaches in the latter clause of that mishna that Rabbi Shimon says: Even these, bills of divorce and bills of manumission, are valid, and Rabbi Zeira said: Rabbi Shimon accepted the opinion of Rabbi Elazar, who said that witnesses of the transmission of the bill of divorce effect the divorce, one can learn by inference that the first tanna does not hold in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Elazar. Instead, he holds that the witnesses who sign effect a divorce. Yet even so, this tanna listed the cases where bills of divorce from gentile courts are invalidated, despite the fact that they are invalid by Torah law.
Но ведь из того, что в конце учится: «рабби Шимон говорит: и эти тоже действительны», и сказал рабби Зейра: рабби Шимон следовал системе рабби Элазара, который сказал, что свидетели передачи определяют [развод] — следовательно, первый танна считает — нет!